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2008.05.20

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emily

I've watched this issue with some interest, too, though I never picked between the two candidates. I do remember Feministing had a lot of discussion about feminism, identity politics, and how voting for Obama isn't an un-feminist thing to do. Quite a bit of discussion on Super Tuesday here: http://feministing.com/archives/008540.html

enjil

Lisa! You know that's not what feminism is. Are you seriously thinking about distancing yourself from the label, or hating how easy it is for any group, including women, to blame women for their plight?

Polly

I feel like whenever someone is saying, "Vote for me, I'm a ____" that's just an admission that there is absolutely no other reason to vote for them. "Vote for me, I'm competent" or "Vote for me, I'm sane" appeals to me a lot more. (Even "Vote for me, I share your values" doesn't always sell me, because what good is someone who is my ideological soul-mate if they can't actually get anything done?)

I voted for Clinton as a senator, but her gender had literally nothing to do with my decision. Early on, I supported her over Obama in part because I felt like a lot of the Obama supporters were trying to Make a Statement to the World as opposed to electing someone on merit. But at this point, I'm glad Obama is taking the nomination because Clinton has basically positioned herself as the candidate of angry white people, and there is nothing more sickening to me than a Democrat who is willing to do that. (Seriously. What a nice thank-you to the African-American community that supported her husband through thick and thin.)

Lisa S.

Lisa! You know that's not what feminism is. Are you seriously thinking about distancing yourself from the label, or hating how easy it is for any group, including women, to blame women for their plight?

A little from column A, a little from column B. I have really been revolted by how so many self-identified feminists and women's advocates have made voting for Clinton a litmus test for feminism; I want nothing to do with that. But you also nailed the blame factor too. I don't like that women are blamed for not rallying behind another woman, as opposed to looking at men and asking, "What about this candidate could you not swallow?" I don't like that there's still some expectation of monolithic gender identity; men don't have that because they're not reduced to their lowest common biological denominator. I find it insulting that people who are allegedly pro-woman DO have no problems assuming that female gender = monolithic idea of "what's good for women," because to me that's as dismissive as bigots who like to make sweeping generalizations based on gender or race or religion.

Maybe it's a generational thing. I really dislike what I've seen coming from Geraldine Ferraro and Robin Morgan and all the "second wave" women who still seem to operate on the premise that all women identify first as female and second as Catholic/conservative/liberal/Chinese/Latina/Lutheran/a scientist/an economist/a teacher/a lesbian/whatever. I think that view does feminism NO favors by ignoring the very real and disparate factors that lots of people grapple with in tandem with their gender baggage, such as class privilege or sexuality or ethnic identity or occupational passion.

Jacquie F

Wow, Lisa. You have perfectly articulated exactly how I feel about this whole Clinton thing. It's pretty to easy feeling like a bad feminist in this whole political awfulness. Thanks for being a voice of reason!

Jane

Right there with you. I was under the delusion until recently that the feminist and *smart* thing to do was to support the candidate that you felt was best for the job. Not the black candidate or the woman candidate or the old white guy candidate, the person that you actually thought could make this country a better place.

Of course, I now see the error of my ways. I can only be a real feminist if I blindly vote for the individual who shares the same genitalia as I do. Regardless of her policies, her track record, or that nagging feeling that I have in the back of my mind that she's riding the coattails of her husband, I must vote for her because she's a her.

The problem is that the old guard feminists are still hung up on the notion of sisterhood. When the power distribution is equal, when we all, black, white, man, woman, whatever, have an equal part in the game there is no brotherhood, no sisterhood. You don't have to side with your peeps to cover yourself, you can actually vote for the individual that best represent your interests. And hasn't that always been the goal of civil rights and feminism. To have the ability to vote, act and live like a white man? To selfishly protect what you want to protect or to give selflessly because you can? It be so secure in your power that it doesn't matter that someone is not from the same group as you, because you know that they will support your view because your view is the dominant view.

Thanks for posting this.

enjil

A large swathe of men have been able to vote using identity politics for a long time. With Clinton becoming a presidential contender, a large group of white, upper-middle class, heterosexual, mothers, well-educated, second-wave-feminist women are able to do so for the first time. (Of course, there are reasons to vote for her that have nothing to do with identity politics, and even people who vote for her because they think of her as being "one of them" do not necessarily resemble her in any visible way.)

I'm not convinced that identity politics is an awful way to determine presidential ability - the oft-lauded tool of voting records has always seemed reductionist to me, and speeches and campaigns are so carefully crafted. Identity politics can be, I think, a useful shortcut for some people in terms of finding common ground with candidates. The problem I have is when people insist that this is the best way, or the only way, to determine candidacy; the most grievous argument is the reductionist one, where women should all vote in a bloc, and all the commenters here have covered that pretty soundly. It's obviously time to move beyond the second wave.

This is easy enough for me to say - I'm not in a position where identity politics plays a role for me in this primary, as I can't even decide who demographically I identify more with between Obama and Clinton.

These don't seem like reasons to abandon feminism, though.

Maria

If I ever win the lottery I am going to hire skywriters to blanket the sky in this country with the message that women being mean or dismissive to other women is a SYMPTOM of sexism, not a reason to claim it doesn't exist.

Misogyny isn't limited to men. You are spot on about reducing women to their biology, and that it doesn't happen to men. Our society is so steeped in the idea that maleness is the baseline to measure deviation from that we are often blind to the sexism we are perpetuating.

Julie

Wow, I'm glad someone said that. I've been reading a lot of essays and op-eds from writers who seem to think that I should vote for Clinton because she's a woman, and that I'm a traitor to my gender if I don't. My feelings are exactly what you said: Saying I have to vote for someone *because* she's female, means that it's OK for a guy to vote against her for the same reason. It's also insulting to say that any of us should or do vote on that issue alone.

TA

I didn't read "women should vote for Clinton because she's a woman" out of ANY of those articles. On the other hand, I've read a whole lot of your message: women who DID or DO support Clinton should fall in line in the end.

Because otherwise we're mad, suicidal, ignoring our own interests. (Irrational woman, yet another sexist stereotype). Listen, it's not for anyone else to tell me what my interests are. Roe is important, but Roe is already weak and the privacy reasoning behind it was never very good, honestly. The patient could die despite our best efforts.

It's blackmail, pure and simple. If I give in to that, how am I going to argue later that I deserve better? I'm taking the long view here.

Obama can earn my vote the same way Clinton did: by showing competence, demonstrating an understanding of complex systems, and evincing a commitment to sex equality. It should not be that hard for him, and if he falls in line, then so will I.

Lisa S.

I've read a whole lot of your message: women who DID or DO support Clinton should fall in line in the end.

I don't know where I've sent that message. Perhaps you're reading it in my pointing out that whomever the next president is will be appointing many justices to the Supreme Court. However, I'm not concerned about that solely because of Roe V. Wade -- I'm concerned owing to the pro-corporate, neo-puritan bent of the Chief Justice and how that affects everything from free expression to federal industry regulations to environmental concerns. I simply don't think a massively conservative court is in any of America's best interests. It's not always about Roe.

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